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Author Topic: Prayer, belief, and the universe.
Charles A. Bruce
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Dearest Blackout,

My wife and I have just finished our evening prayer service in our den and we have prayed for you heavily. We don't want you to die. Blackout, turn your bible to Galatians 88:21:

"And woe he said unto the dying ones: behest thee"

Prayers

[ 08-08-2003, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Blackout ]

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Posts: 6 | From: Ogonguit, ME | Registered: Aug 2003  | Report this post to a Moderator
Ampersand
I'm Gentle and sweet woman looking for a good kind man.
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I think I hate you the most.

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I'm looking for a good kind man, who wont hit me anymore. Will you be my friend forever? Come check out my profile.

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Shostie
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Does Galatians even HAVE that many chapters in it?

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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BAD MUTHA FUCKA
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I hate to break the news to you but praying never solves anything. Praying is just as naive as wishing and hoping. Wishing and hoping will never get you anywhere. It is just a way to lie to your self from facing the truth. It's like calling yourself "differently abled" as opposed to crippled. It's just another way to pacify the actuality of things.

So you like to read the bible? I do too. I’ve got this passage memorized. Ezekiel 25:17….
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepards the weak through the valley of darkness for he is truly his brothers keeper and a finder of lost children. And I will STRIKE DOWN UPON THEE WITH GREAT VENGENCE AND FUUUUURIOUS ANGER, THOSE WHO ATTEMPT TO POISON AND DESTROY MY BROTHERS AND YOU WILL KNOW MY NAME IS [BAD MUTHA FUCKA] WHEN I LAY MY VEGENCE UPON THEE.

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG.

[ 08-08-2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: BAD MUTHA FUCKA ]

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Galador
Old friend of Blackout (Original WKPXer) Mustard Hater and Writer's Box Moderator
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Wow, here's a naive statement:

I hate to break the news to you but praying never solves anything. Praying is just as naive as wishing and hoping. Wishing and hoping will never get you anywhere.

What a crock of shit! If Blackout didn't wish and hope for success, none of this would be here. If you didn't wish and hope to be out of prison earlier than you should've been, you'd still be there. Wishing and hoping are two of the greatest motivators human beings have, and without them we would have no incentive and get nothing accomplished. And just because the power of prayer does nothing for you does not mean it doesn't have a soothing and subliminal effect on those who believe it works. Sometimes just by visualizing and focusing your energy on something you can create the inertia needed to get you partway, and prayer can be another example of that. Sure, we all know that prayer doesn't work the way the pray-er believes it will, that just by asking you'll get what you want, but it's better than the bleak hopelessness of sitting on your ass and waiting--it helps people feel they have a bit more control of their lives.

Tonight I'll be adding you to my prayers, BMF. You *and* Sam Jackson.

James

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Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Xenth
Angry, scary, freakish little pink video game dude leftover from the 1980s.
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I have to agree with galador, hope is a powerful motivational tool.

I never realy believed it was either until I started to get into realy big tennis tournament with realy tough players, I swear they were going to plow right through me like it was nothing, though I didn't pray or anything, I did hope that I was going to win. and that kept my intensity levels up and I ended up playing better than I ever have, even though I still lost.

But when I am totally convinced I am going to loose no matter what, I start playing terrible I just push everything back and I barley move my feet and my big shots become weak shots that always go out.

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Axiom of choice is on par with the existence of God.

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Vinas
Official Blackout's Box Fancy Lad Canadian Bitch Ambassador and Teutonic God of Thunder
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Being a two dimension fictional character from the moon really can't lend itself to the power-serves, eh?

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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Carrot Vagina
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Well, prayer, as practiced by most people is a false hope rather than a tool for positive reinforcement as it should be. Creative, positive visualization about yourself or your future or your hopes and dreams is THE most powerful instrument for accomplishing what you want or achieving what you desire. You are God. You are your own God.

But if that hope is masked in myopic prayer - blind faith - then you've got a problem. There's no use sitting around and WAITING for God to come and make everything all nice nice. Don't be fooled by such a false hope. Jesus can blow me, okay? He's not going to buy you that new car, he's not going to get you that part, he's not going to sell that script for you. Spend less time praying to an imaginary prophet, and more time praying to yourself. Reinforcing yourself. Empowering yourself.

And if you want to help Blackout, and make sure he does not suffer a tragic, pitiful death before his time - instead of prayer - do what most bible toting, god-fearing folk are trained to do - SEND MONEY. That's right, open up your hearts and your pocketbooks...help fill the depleted coffers of the good church of Blackout's Box. Every little bit helps.

May your sins be forgiven. And our fridge filled with more beer.

-The Vag [Mad]

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Carrot Vagina: Rich in beta-carotene...better to see your forthcoming ass whooping. http://www.5thdementia.com

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Blackout
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Amen.

I do a lot of wishing and hoping and praying and dreaming and creating and especially now, as I have learned, actually working, and working as hard as I can, towards what it is I want to be as a human being and how I want my life to be. Can I tell you there is a God and Jesus, like two guys with the master game designer rule book hanging out at a monitor of some sorts with some popcorn watching all this and helping some others and punishing others or sending them 'to the other guy'? I don't know. I have no idea. There may be, but then I would think there is more after that still. I ultimately believe that we are all one thing and everything and everyone is a part of what some people would call God. There are infinite levels and probably many cretaures or beings or somethings that do have the designers handbook to this plane of existance and perhaps can influence things somewhat in one's life. Is that God, is that Jesus, is that an Alien, is that a demon? Is hat BMF or is that a peanut butter sandwhich sadled Sonuvian from Zarchackies III? I don't KNOW, but I believe in possibilities, and learning, and I do believe in energy, and that thought guides energy, so to say that prayer has no effect, is just plain stupid. Even though it is the truth, the truth for you , because THAT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE, so that's how it works for you, and untill you expand your thought system and maybe consider some other possibilties, then praying, hoping, wishing, dreaming, and oh yes, the very important one, actually TRYING to go at those things that you are wishing hoping praying and dreaming for, is not going to work, because you have just set up foryourself that they don't, and your mind, your energy, and your current destiny - believes what you believe.

As Lenny Kravitz said,

"If you want it you've got it, you just have to believe, believe in yourself."

I am sorry for putting everyone through this scare, sometimes I think I should keep a couple of my missteps in life private but then I think, I want pople to know I'm a real person, and I make all sorts of huge mistakes. But I try to be good, and to help others, and to make my dreams come true while helping anyone else I can on there path. So if my stories help you or at least amuse you, I've done something good.

Thanks everyone for your e-mails and thank you to all my local friends here around the hat house for taking care of me while I was down. I am feeling much better today and I think whatever nastiness was in my system is gone.

Love, Love, Love, all you need is Love.

(and some tequila)

- Blackout

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You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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Geoff
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Glad you're feeling better, Blackout.

There's another, more charitable benefit to making your mistakes public: someone else might take your words to heart and not do something that would really hurt them.

This raises some issues for the drug debate - yeah, there was a bad result, because you didn't know what you were taking. But if the FDA had approved E, they could potentially govern the purity and you wouldn't have had the problems you did. What's everyone else think?

I think one should stick to pot and N02.

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KDK PRANK CALLS
Blackout's Box Long Time Fan - and very good somewhat gay or bisexual guy? Who knows...what does it matter?
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Geoff for Congress!

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KDK Prank Calls, still the highest-ranked prank call website on the planet.

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Charles A. Bruce
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Amen Brother Blackout,

My wife was pleased to see that you were feeling better. Sometimes the power of my own prayers makes me shudder. I have often brought down children from the neighborhood to rejoice with serpents and speak in tongues. Afterwards, the wife brews some mint soup and we all hunker down for a tasty morsel of venison and mint soup.

I actually wept while reading your post I was so amazed at my healing powers. And I quote: "He that hast the lasteth almighty power, shall ring, and he shall be seen not heard!" Malakai 43:13

Today cleaning out our broom closet, the missus uncorked a deadly spider. It bit her thricely. We are now in full prayer mode that the poison release itself from her veins. "Woe he who is their amongst men, do you not bleed as well?" Euripides 79:74

Holy holy almighty, it is HIS will.

Charles

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BAD MUTHA FUCKA
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Ok let me clear things up a little.

Galador, I see your point as far as praying, hoping and wishing as a motivational tool or a coping mechanism. If it helps you cope with a bad situation or give your life some meaning to keep going then I agree that it would be good but the fact is hoping and praying will not actually accomplish anything only action on your part will. Hoping and wishing may have helped blackout to keep pursuing what he wanted but it was all the hard work and commitment on his part that has gotten him anywhere. Everything he has accomplished seems to me was accomplished because he formulated an idea or plan and executed that plan. It was all Blackout not hope, not wishing, not praying, just Blackout. I think this is your reason on how prayer and hope relate to success. (prayer or hope)=motivation, motivation=purpose+focus, motivation+purpose+focus=determination, determination=success.

Xenth, I don't think it was hope that gave you your intensity during your tennis match. If anything it was a result of deep desire to win and you actually trying to make that happen. Hoping was just that. You hoped you would win but didn't, so the actuality of it is that hoping did nothing for you. So you can pray for a good game, you can hope to score; you can wish you were faster but that isn't going to make anything happen. It's all up to you.

Blackout, I think you are creative, innovative, and imaginative and so forth and that is part of the reason you do what you do. The other part I would say is all the hard work you do to achieve you're dreams. Dreams are not naive but I think wishing for them to come true is. Wishing can't make anything come true, but you can. All the power lies in you and of course sometimes you will be screwed with circumstances which you can't control and all you can do is deal with it. You can't pray and make it all go away. That is my argument but I could be wrong which I doubt very much because I'm hardly ever wrong. On side note, I understand that you think we are all one thing. I remember reading something once that had to do with that whole ying-yang thing. A lot of people think that that has to do with balance which is completely wrong, like because there is good there has to be evil. The ying-yang philosophy would suggest that evil grew out of good, which. It's actually is a philosophy on creation that suggest things come out of other things. For example, fire came from wood, wood came from earth, earth came from metal. Basically all it is a chain that keeps going and growing and basis creation as one thing even though there are different things and that there is no creator. In Hindi philosophy, in something called the rig Veda they believe in something similar. There was a story where some boy asks his father where a figs come from, and he replies from the seed inside, but when they break a seed open they are just hollow and empty but yet from this comes the tree and from the tree the fruit which it bears. A similar western philosophy suggest that things come from nothing, ex nihlo, which is Latin for from nothing. This is slightly different from the ying-yang philosophy which does not include a creator and the ex nihlo philosophy assumes that a creator came from nothing. Well anyways, enough of that.

Charles A. Bruce, the gesture was nice. It is good to show compassion and that you care. I "hope" I haven't angered you.

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Blackout
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Now this is what I like to see, BMF, actually engadged in intelligent conversation!

I agree, WORK and effort and planning have to go into making things happen, but at the same time, there were and are forces and intelligences and sequences through time at work that you did not, do not, or could not control or even understand, or, even if you perhaps DID control these things in some other mode of consciousness, you are unaware of it at this time. You have to remember that there are people who work and work and work and put forth all sorts of effort torwards something and still achieve no benefit or result whatsoever sometimes, especially in the field that I'm in, of any sort of artistry or entertainment, so when people 'make it big' and have the attitude that they 'did it all on their own with their hard work', and they act like egotistical assholes - I take note, and find them unworthy EVEN if they are very talented. What is to be made of those who worked and worked and worked and got nothing?

The plain fact of the matter is that if they made it in, it was a gift, it was a lotto shoot to some extent, and they should be humble. Did you get to design your brain and talents before you came here to earth and was born? Maybe we all did, but I don't recall it, do you? I have to respect whatever forces are before me that setup the scenario for this world and my existence, even if it might have been a seperate part of me. I don't know exactly who or what that force or being or intelligence or marshmellow is, but I respect that there are bigger things than me, and smaller things than me, and I try and be spiritual without being religious. To that extent, I think praying helps. Praying is not magic. Praying is more like thanks to the universe and asking it to help guide you as you work, and when your are praying you are thinking, and thinking is concentrating energy towards a goal, and energy is everything. Hopefully whatever your passion is, it is good.

Believing in yourself is very important, but believing in JUST yourself without giving gratitude and humility to the forces you may not comprehend, is stupid and selfish. Call it nature, magic, science, God, Chi, The One, Buddah, Yinyang, Yo Yo, whatever, there is more than just you even if you are everything that is. If we are all one being and God is just a skitzophrenic who filtered out individual and therefore percieved separate existences in order to calm his lonliness, it still doesn't mean you rule all the other existences even if they are you, how do you know they don't rule you? Did you design your own heart, and it's functions? How about your nervous system? Can you explain the full working of the brain, and what percieves the brain if the brain is just an organic computer? These things can go on and on in loops and loops, and this thread is best moved over to the philosophy box, but I guess my final meaning is this: Believe in yourself, be confident in that believe but humble, and remember that others may have different beliefs, and that NO ONE can make it on their own. Other people are always just as responsible for whatever success you achieve as you are. There is energy, we are energy, there are things we may not understand, respect that there is more than you, but keep in mind that we might all be one thing. Just keep an open mind everybody, who knows where this party is going.

Try to believe.

- Blackout

[ 08-08-2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Blackout ]

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You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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BAD MUTHA FUCKA
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Well I'm glad I have you rethinking your whole "we are one" philosophy.I think we are on the same page though.

True you can't accomplish everything on your own. No one starts off at the top. Where you end up is in the hands of a lot of other people. They can help you or they can hold you back but there is only so much you can do yourself to achieve what you want. Sometimes it doesn't go the way you want it to but all you can do is deal with it.
Sometimes you are just fucked by circumstances that you can not control.

Hard work doesn't entitle you to shit. You can work hard at something but that doesn't mean you will get the credit you deserve or further your opportunities to succeed. Sometimes it pays off and most times it doesn't and guess what? You can't control that either.

Praying, and wishing will not change that. That is all I'm saying. If it helps you cope with a hard situation or motivates you somehow, well then it just does. I however, think that is just a way to psych youself out, a way to pacify the realness of the matter.

I know this was post was originally to show some compassion for Blackout almost dying but if Blackout did die, praying and wishing would not save his life and yes Blackout, it would be you who is dying not me. I've had too many of my own near death experiences and not once did I try to pray or wish my way out of it. I thought, "Uh-oh, I've done it now" but whatever happened to me would and nothing would change that. I guess though that I could've worried about an after life and started feeling bad about all sorts of things and trying to reach closure or something like that. I could have prayed for forgiveness and hoped to go to heaven but I didn't. Why start to panic? There's no point.

Furthermore Blackout, you say a lot of strange things and I don't know if you're being serious or not. Do you spend hours and hours trying to figure things out? That's a good way to loose your grasp on reality.

I mean you do say a lot of things but I think you ask yourself questions that can only be answered by assumptions and theories. I'm not saying you are right and I'm not saying you're wrong but I am saying you have no evidence that proves any of your theories and assumptions are correct or valid. So in the end all you have is a headache, assumptions, and theories.

I don't even think you got close to dying. I think you had a bad trip and paniced. Just because you get all warm and numb, feel horrible, your heart beats way to fast, maybe you even start puking and go into some convulsions doesn't mean you're going to die. It just means you can't hang. Don't worry I've been there and past that. See now I'm assuming things. Damn it. See you what do?

[ 08-08-2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: BAD MUTHA FUCKA ]

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Lindsi
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:tisshh: Ouch! [Eek!]

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I tried to give you Summer, but I'm Winter. I wish I could make you Spring, but I Fall so hard.

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Blackout
Actor Singer Writer Director Visionary Philosopher Magickian Skydiver Digital Hippie and all around Creative Artist
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I was not saying that I am God, I was saying that I believe we all are, or at least that is a possibility in my mind. What is the big problem that most intelligent thinkers have when they think about the problem of God. Well, if he created us and all this, then who created him? Is there a God of the Gods? and so on and so on and so on. There may very well be a God as explained in the bible that created this place exactly as stated, but I don't think it works that way. For all we know, aliens created us and left that nice little story book called the bible so that we wouldn't go trying to find them and bother them while they are having dinner.

I do believe in some loving, creative, guiding force or forces because things are ordered, amazing, and work, and we just observe and try and learn how, yet we don't know. Science answers only so many questions by observation but it still does not know WHY something happens even though it knows it happens a certain way in a certain order. For instance, science will tell us electrons rotate around a nucleus but WHY..? Science doesn't know that.. it just gives us equations but doens't have the reasons WHY those equations or rule sets are as they are, so at the end, you might as well call it magic.

You talk about unprovable theories. Well, sure, a lot of things can't be proved but does that mean we don't ponder them? Prove to me you love someone? No matter what you do in life, being good to them, marry, have kids, stand by them, take care of them, that is still not PROOF of love, it is an unprovable thing, but it exists.

So if you want me to get technical and describe my logic in the way I think, here we go:

To me, there can either be IS, or IS NOT, and since I am sitting here typing this and thinking, I'm going to go with the fact that something IS, or I AM. Lets use that as a proof. Now I can't prove you exist, but at least to myself, I can rationaly believe myself to exist because I am thinking about it and therefor something IS happening,and I am percieving it, or at least I believe myself to be, but even that, if it is a trick, is something. The whole "I think therefore I am" theory is happening and I buy that one.

To me, the only answer that can solve the problem I mentioned above - the, "well, if God made us then who made him?" and so on and so forth problem, is that we are all a part of God. Before him was us, and before us was him, or better put, nothing was before, there either is, or there is not, and since we are having this discussion, there IS, and we are part of that IS,and that IS is ever expanding and getting more complex. The Pi numbers are like that. I believe this human life to one sort of filter out of the all, the all of everything there is, that is forever expanding and getting more complex, and each persons drive and creativity pushes it further. We may all be the mind of God, and God, may not even percieve himself.

Let me give the sunglasses example again, which I think I have talked about before. If I hold up a pair of colored sunglasses that have green lenses, and I hold them up to a light and I ask you "What color are the lenses?", most people will answer, "the lenses are green," but that answer is in actuality incorrect, the lenses are every color BUT green, and green is the only color that passes through the lenses. I believe our individual lives are like that. We are everything BUT us, and in our individual human form, we are a filter through which we experience our supposed 'separate' and unique individual life. There are probabaly endless filters and levels and lives and consciousness and energies and perhaps at one point you drop all filters, have all doors open, and are one with everything at one time, and perhaps we would call that God. Maybe God changes and we all take turns, I don't know for sure but that is part of the magic, and I do think about it, not to the point of losing grip on reality or not doing 'real' things in my 'real'life, but to the point of being aware there that there is more to this world than what we can percieve right now. Will anyone ever really want to know everything for sure, and even if you did, if you were given the whole true and honest absolute answers, then something would collapse or something new would be created and there would be NEW questions.

Live long and prosper,

- Blackout

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You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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tollhouse
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Blackout,

To me, the only answer that can solve the problem I mentioned above - the, "well, if God made us then who made him?" and so on and so forth problem, is that we are all a part of God.

To me, there's another answer, that seems obvious when you question the assumption the question is based on. The question seems to be based on the assumption that if anything was created, then everything was created. So if we need a creator, then God must need a creator.

It seems to me that there's a reason we need a creator that doesn't necessarily apply to God. The reason we need a creator is because we had a beginning, and whatever begins to exist has a cause to its existence. If we are eternal, having never begun to exist, then there would be no reason to suppose that we need a creator. And if God is eternal, with no beginning, then there is no reason to suppose that he needs a creator either. So I would question that assumption that if anything needs a creator then everything needs a creator, and I would say that whatever begins to exist needs a creator, but whatever does NOT begin to exist does NOT need a creator.

Unless you can rule out the possibility that a beginningless God brought us into existence, then it seems to me you'd have to agree that your answer isn't the only answer that can solve the problem.

tollhouse

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Blackout
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I agree with you that a beginningless God brought us into existence, but in a different way, believe we existed with the beginningless God, that there was no begining. There just IS, and here we are. If what you are saying, that there was an eternal God who had no beginning and therefore needed no creator created us, then I think we are just a part of him/it/her/all/is/ whatever you want to call it. I don't think that God took magic dust and made us exist when we didn't before, I think that God just split himself or took part of himself or his energy or whatever it is that is the IS, and we are that, and therefore part of God, not a separate creaton that exists on it's own apart from the enternal non beginning needing creator.

At least at the highest level, a level that probabaly no one sees, I think that is what's going on. But that's just me.

--------------------
You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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Jack's Broken Heart
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quote:
Originally posted by tollhouse:
Blackout,

To me, the only answer that can solve the problem I mentioned above - the, "well, if God made us then who made him?" and so on and so forth problem, is that we are all a part of God.

To me, there's another answer, that seems obvious when you question the assumption the question is based on. The question seems to be based on the assumption that if anything was created, then everything was created. So if we need a creator, then God must need a creator.


hold on, here . you're trying to tell me that god is merely the next link up on the spiritual food chain ? let's be cogent here: the possibility exists, but no one here really finds the idea feasible, do they ?

science and the kabbalah are in complete congruence . not to say that i was conscious at creation, but in a mystical, spiritual way, i suppose i was .

the big bang theory has been revised to fit a new model: one of the big implosion . if you've had the opportunity to read anything by kabbalist scholars or happened to peruse the creation hymn of the rig-veda ( hindu ), ideas of spiritual scholars state that at one point, there was no nothing ( forgive the double-negative, but it is necessary ) . nothing existed and yet nothing didn't exist . space and time were wound up in a state of paradox . in one moment, the consciousness of god began to fold in on itself . desire was born of the creator way before light existed .

stephen hawking and other talented scientists have calculated the beginning of the universe to be between nine billion and sixteen billion years old . mystic scholars also predicted these numbers over seven hundred years ago, based on the hidden oral tradition of the jews .

in the texts of most major religions, the story of creation runs pretty much the same . you can place the tibetan book of the dead beside the bible and still put your panties on one leg at a time while reading them: the configuration is almost completely identical .

what does all of this MEAN, i'm sure you're asking . it's simple, folks . god created himself . life is change, and god is not some exempt, dynamic, omnipotent creator . everyone takes god to be this perfect being, sitting atop a cloud just outside of our vision . but if god is truly master of the infinite, then god is parcel and part of us all . god is the evil in the world, helping to define what is truly good, and vice-versa . god is chaotic ( see the old testament ), god is loving ( see leaf bugs ), god has a sense of humour ( see stephen hawking ), god is weeping ( see the congo ), god just might be shining down on you right now ( see the light coming in your window ) . god is truly everything . god created satan . and personally, i can't wait until i can be god, too .

--------------------
"For the rest of you: take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it."

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tollhouse
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Heart,

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say, but I'll answer as best I can. It seemed to me that Blackout was basing his view on the fact that he thought his view was the only solution to the problem of "Who created God, if God created man?" All I wanted to show was that Blackout's solution to the problem is not the only possible solution. The question, "If God created man, who created God?" is based on the assumption that if man was created, then God must also be created. That seemed to be to be a non-sequitor because it doesn't follow that God must be created just because man was created. If God had no beginning to his existence, then there's no reason to suppose that he had any cause to his existence at all, but if we did have a beginning, then there is reason to believe we had a cause to our existence. So it's possible that God has always existed and that he brought us into existence, in which case, the question "Who created God" is a meaningless question since it's based on a false assumption.

hold on, here . you're trying to tell me that god is merely the next link up on the spiritual food chain?


Since I don't know what you mean by "the next link up on the spiritual food chain," I can't tell you whether that's what I mean or not. I thought what I did mean was pretty clear, but maybe not.

let's be cogent here: the possibility exists, but no one here really finds the idea feasible, do they ?


I, for one, find my view quite feasible. But whether the notion that God is the next link up on the spiritual foodchain, I don't know if that's feasible or not because I don't know what you mean by it.

For the most part, I didn't understand what argument you were trying to make in your post, but I'm guessing that maybe what you're doing is offering a third possible solution to the "Who created God?" problem, and you find your view more feasible than mine, I'm guessing. I'm not entirely sure what exactly your view is, nor what your argument for your view is, but there were a couple of things I think I can respond to.

First you said that "spiritual scholars" say that at some point "nothing existed and yet nothing didn't exist." Unless you're equivocating on the word "nothing," this statement seems self-contradictory. If what you mean by "nothing" is something like "the absense of something," which is the usual way we use the word in English, then when you say "nothing exists," what you must mean is that there are no 'somethings' in existence. In other words, there isn't anything that exists. If that's what you mean by "nothing" then I take it when you say "nothing didn't exists" that you mean "something did exist." If that's what you mean, then your statement contradicts itself because on the one hand it says, "There is something which exists," while at the same time saying, "There isn't anything that exists." I may have just misunderstood what you were saying, but if I've understood correctly, your view seems less feasible than both mine and Blackout's because at least our views are logically consistent, whereas yours isn't. Unless you are having serious doubts about the law of non-contradiction, it seems to me that your view isn't even possibly true.

The next thing you said that I wanted to respond to was that "God created himself." I'm guessing that is the crux of your view. It's your answer to the question, "Who created God?" But this answer also seems logically absurd to me. If God had a beginning, then there was a time when God didn't exist. And if God didn't exist, then he couldn't create anything. Before God can create anything, he has to first exist. Otherwise, there's nobody, including himself, to do the creating. Without existing, God couldn't have created anything at all, including himself. Your claim seems logically contradictory because it seems to imply that God both existed and didn't exist at the same time and in the same sense, and that's contradictory. So again, your view not only seems less feasible than both mine and Blackout's, but your view doesn't even seem to me to be a possibility.

If I've misrepresented your view, I apologize, and I hope that you'll just be more careful in explaining your view next time.

tollhouse

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Galador
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I'll just quote XTC here from the song "Dear God:" Did you make mankind, after we made you?

James

--------------------
Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Jack's Broken Heart
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quote:
Originally posted by tollhouse:
Heart,

First you said that "spiritual scholars" say that at some point "nothing existed and yet nothing didn't exist." Unless you're equivocating on the word "nothing," this statement seems self-contradictory. If what you mean by "nothing" is something like "the absense of something," which is the usual way we use the word in English, then when you say "nothing exists," what you must mean is that there are no 'somethings' in existence. In other words, there isn't anything that exists. If that's what you mean by "nothing" then I take it when you say "nothing didn't exists" that you mean "something did exist." If that's what you mean, then your statement contradicts itself because on the one hand it says, "There is something which exists," while at the same time saying, "There isn't anything that exists." I may have just misunderstood what you were saying, but if I've understood correctly, your view seems less feasible than both mine and Blackout's because at least our views are logically consistent, whereas yours isn't. Unless you are having serious doubts about the law of non-contradiction, it seems to me that your view isn't even possibly true.

The next thing you said that I wanted to respond to was that "God created himself." I'm guessing that is the crux of your view. It's your answer to the question, "Who created God?" But this answer also seems logically absurd to me. If God had a beginning, then there was a time when God didn't exist. And if God didn't exist, then he couldn't create anything. Before God can create anything, he has to first exist. Otherwise, there's nobody, including himself, to do the creating. Without existing, God couldn't have created anything at all, including himself. Your claim seems logically contradictory because it seems to imply that God both existed and didn't exist at the same time and in the same sense, and that's contradictory. So again, your view not only seems less feasible than both mine and Blackout's, but your view doesn't even seem to me to be a possibility.

If I've misrepresented your view, I apologize, and I hope that you'll just be more careful in explaining your view next time.

tollhouse

misrepresented ? you threw a lizard into the sewers of new york and claimed it was an alligator .

i do believe that i followed my dialectic by characterizing it as paradoxical . sure, if you apply reason and logic to god, in no way does he exist . hegel, kierkegaard, nietchze, sartre, hume have all written volumes explaining that very fact .

thought and discussion mean little . you either experience god or you don't .

p.s. next time you want to rip me an asshole, make sure to read my entire statement and not just phrases you have intellectual qualms with .

--------------------
"For the rest of you: take dead aim on the rich boys. Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. Just remember, they can buy anything but they can't buy backbone. Don't let them forget it."

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Blackout
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I have more to say on this but I tend to view it more as old Jacky does. Tollhouse, some of your own arguments have flaws in them by the definition of your argument you destroy your argument. Look back and read your own post again, but I will get into that in a little later, I must eat now because God made me have to kill things to continue, so I am going to go take life from something so that I might continue on a little longer.

--------------------
You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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AAARRRGGH
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Human beings create their own gods. Every single god that people have ever believed in, including yahweh the christian god, has been created entirely and solely by human beings.

There is not now, nor has there ever been throughout all history, one SINGLE shred of evidence for the existence of any form of god.

God does not exist.

Good, I'm glad I've sorted that one out for you.

By the way check this out.

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Munch Munch

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Xenth
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Nuh uh.

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Axiom of choice is on par with the existence of God.

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