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Author Topic: Bible Thumpers
Rachael
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I can't stand bible thumpers!!!!! This has gotten so bad that I feel the need to make a post about it. I'm sick of walking to my class, all studious and ready to learn, only to hear someone shout from our free speach zone "Turn from your sinful ways now, our face enternity in the fiery depths of hell!" Now, I love a good religious confrontation as much as anyone, but these people are just ridiculous. It's funny that they seem to pick on me, becuase I'm a tragically sqaure goody-goody of a person. Trust me, if I'm going to hell, I'm sure I'll see these people there. So, do you guys have Bible-thumpers on-campus? Are you sick of it too? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this, and maybe ways to discourage them. (Or at least some ingenius come-backs)
Posts: 61 | From: ucf | Registered: Oct 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Vinas
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Flip side of the coin for comparison. Don't get me wrong, I'm silently Catholic (The Catholic Ninja, if you will), and I hate idiotic bible thumpers just as much as anyone...but what about militantly atheist people?

If they don't believe in God, that's fine, but I can really do without them laughing at me, mocking me, or calling me stupid for believing in something I can't prove - which, by the way, happens to be something they can't DISPROVE, either.

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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Galador
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I don't run into many Bible-thumpers nowadays. About two weeks ago I was outside my store when someone approached me and asked if I loved Christ. Without missing a beat I responded, "I could care less about someone called Christ." I was amazed when he didn't engage me after that; instead he just walked away.

Try this approach next time you see a BT hanging about on campus. Carry a lawn chair, some popcorn, and a drink, and just plop down about 10 feet away from him and just watch for a while like it's your new favorite cable channel.

Don't respond to anything, don't engage him in conversation, just munch away on popcorn, slurp your drink loudly, and watch.

Eventually you might get all your campus friends to join you, giving him quite the audience. One day you can even bring a soapbox!

James

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Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Shostie
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Like Vinas, I too am a Catholic ninja of sorts. I can't stand Bible Thumping folk. And I live in Mississippi, where the official state motto is something like, "Burn in hell, you black, homosexual Jew, you."
The Bible, in my opinion, is a wonderful little book. It contains some very nice "how to live a nice life" material. I just can't stand the people who DISSECT the Bible, finding meaning in even the most trivial of passages.
One of these days I'm going to put out my own version of the Bible which will contain the following:
1. The 10 Commandments.
2. The parables that Jesus told his posse.
That's all you really need. Everything else is pretty extraneous.

Worse, I think, are the "Jews for Jesus." I've seen these people and just stop and exclaim, "Huh?" First of all, if you're Jewish believe that Jesus was the son of God, you automatically cease to be a Jew. That is the defining difference between Christians and Jews. Furthermore, Jew refers to to a religion, not a race. The proper term would be "Hebrews for Jesus." But that's not as catchy. So much for semantics...

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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Vinas
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- BEGIN FUNCTION: PUN -

Don't you mean semitics?

- END FUNCTION: PUN -


One point that I find myself having to constantly remake to the rabidly anti-religious; where do you think we got our current "morals" from? Almost every law, legal or societal, comes directly from the ten commandments.

As you say, the Bible is a nice little bedtime story that has some good ideas and nice plans for living a happy, peaceful life, but it really should not be taken in any capacity other than that (Nor should it be taken internally, as my late uncle Norton found out one cold December morn').

[ 10-24-2002, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: Vinas ]

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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Shostie
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"Take two Bibles and call me in the morning."

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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Blackout
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For some very fun reading I suggest getting a copy of "Ken's Guide to the Bible" which points out some of the wackier shit in there.

James.. loved the popcorn idea.

As for me, I believe everyone is entitled to believe what they believe and I am open to all possibilities.

Remember the part in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy with the man who might be God and his cat?

- Blackout

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You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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ShaynaMaidelah
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Deal is with those guys on the Chemistry Green is that they are extremists who believe anything that is not them, is wrong. My favorite experience with those guys on the green was 2 weeks ago when I was wearing shorts for the first time (I was a conservative/modern orthodox Jew up until 4 months ago) and I walked right by the guy and he started screaming at me because I was showing skin. Albeit wasn't pretty (me in shorts I mean), the guy was shouting ideals which would make the Puritans sound impure. You just have to ignore them, and realize that your G-d, or higher being, or no higher being (your logic, and philosophy) is just as good and is just as valid as theirs. Yours probably just sounds smarter.

-Shayna

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Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi:
Always wear underwear.

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Rachael
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Yeah, Shayna knows what I'm talking about up in UCF. It's funny because out of all the things I've done, I get yelled at by random Bible Thumpers for wearing pants instead of a skirt, or wearing the color red. I don't think anyone should be laughed at, ridiculed, mocked, or judged because of their religious beliefs. That's a basic human right in my book. However, I think I also have a right to walk past the Chemestry Green and not be called a slut, or the like. ( I may be many things, but that's not one of them). If they has valid complaints about me, such as that I'm dependant, over-emotional, and a bit anti-social at times, I may actually listen, but these people know nothing about me, yet judge me on sight. There are students who will plop down and just listen to what these people have to say, but within ten minites, egos take over. What I wonder is if people who use this method to convert the heathen masses at our campuses think that this is an effective method?
Posts: 61 | From: ucf | Registered: Oct 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Galador
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There's a huge difference between making fun of someone for their religious beliefs and making fun of someone because they are amazingly stupid and annoying. I'd love to see Blackout confront a Bible-thumper by pulling out a copy of Hitchhiker's Guide and quoting random passages in retort... Guide-Thumping!

"Space is big. Really big. You have no idea how mind-bogglingly big it is..."

BTW, anyone else catch that "Shayna Maidelah" is Yiddish for "Pretty Girl" ? Well, welcome to the boards, Rachael and SM!

James

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Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Shostie
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You know, anytime I hear about or see some zealots screaming at people about how people going to hell because they (the people) don't have the same beliefs as the zealots I get confused.
I'm not that religious. Hell, I've never actually read the Bible. I've read bits of it, but I've never sat down and read the thing, cover to cover. But I think I remember a little part in there that went something like, "Do onto others as you would do yourself." So does that mean when these Bible thumping morons get home they engage in a rousing round of self-flaggelation? It certainly isn't Miller Time for those folk.

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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Vinas
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I'd be lying if I said I had, so, I had.

Regardless, welcome indeed! Please accept this gift basket of dried and lightly salted trout as our way of saying, "Please don't press charges".

Amd along those lines, Shostie, I personally cannot believe in a God who would be so self-centered and narcissistic as to condemn those who don't go to church seven times a week to eternal damnation.

My relationship with God is more like a relationship with a really cool platonic female friend. She's your buddy, you respect her for who and what he is, and you sometimes take a minute to tell her that, but you don't kneel down and bow to her every time she walks by. Not to mention that, like a true friend, the only restrictions she'd ask you to place on your life are ones that would prevent you from hurting yourself or others, not arbitrary bullshit.

[ 10-24-2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Vinas ]

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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ShaynaMaidelah
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Vinas: I agree with you. Too many people these days look at G-d as all knowing, all powerful figure, which unfortunately makes G-d hard to relate to. From this point of view, G-d is flat, almost 2D. We don't get a chance to know him or know his ways other than the rules that are forced upon us by society.

Now if we treat him as a friend, in 3D, we analyze and delve deeper into what and who G-d really is, he'll seem a lot more like us. He'll have feelings, even attributes (according to the Torah there are 13) and he won't seem just like an unhuman entity.

Oh and sorry if anyone gets offended by me using "him" to refer to G-d. It could also be "her", but just use them interchangibly.

Ciao,
Shayna

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Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi:
Always wear underwear.

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Shostie
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I'm confused. Why the omission of the letter "o" from the word "God?" Did I miss a memo?

[ 10-24-2002, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Shostie ]

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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Vinas
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At least, in my vernacular, it's a way of saying "God" in reference to a God-like supreme being, without actually saying "God". Just like some people refer to 'Him' as "S/He".

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

Posts: 3557 | From: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Zach
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Wow. I feel like an outsider now. No one else in this post stated that they were an Atheist.

Well, I'll be the first. Anywho. I do enjoy a good religious confrontation from anyone, especially from the bible thumping people because that just opens themselves up for a good reaming.

Now I don't go out and actively bash people who are religious, but I do make a few shots at religion. I have some very, very "hardcore christian" friends that accept me for being an Atheist, just like I accept them for being a christian.

Here are some quotes to make you think:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - - Stephen Roberts

"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer." - anonymous

It's your god. They're your rules. You go to hell.

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"When people fear the government, there is tyranny. When government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Paine

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

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Shostie
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Nah. You see, Zach, being Catholic I'm not very worried about going to Hell. If I were to die right after I post this, I wouldn't go to hell. I haven't done anything bad enough to warrant "hell-bound" status. Instead, I'd just go to Purgatory. Purgatory, in my mind, is just a very, very, very big waiting room. You spend a couple hundred years walking your way up to the front desk, then you take a number (which would be something like #2,456,748,246,153, and the sign says, now serving #4), so you work your way back to the end of the waiting room, sit down, and all you have to do is read old copies of Newsweek and Highlights for Children with all the puzzles and games already worked out.
That's my version of Purgatory.

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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ShaynaMaidelah
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G-d is another way of writing the big dude's name. In case this posting was ever printed and by mistake shredded you can't say that G-d's name was desecrated.

Thats the short explanation.

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Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi:
Always wear underwear.

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Blackout
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It's funny that youposted what you did James, that you would like to see me quoting Hitchhiker's Guide lines to a bible thumper to see there response because low and behold, when I get on my connecting 4 and a half hour flight from Chicago to LA, I am seated next to a friendly man,who introduces himself, chats for a while as I tell him a little about Blackout's Box, and when I ask him what he does he says he is a pastor.

I then proceeeded to have a several hour conversation with him about Catholocism, God, philosophy, science fiction, God Wanted, and he finally said, man, I can't keep up with you, I need to take a nap.

He was a pretty cool guy though, I wouldn't call him a "bible thumper" so much because he wasn't very pushy. Just a nice guy who had found his belief and was happy with it. He gave me his info and I told him about the show so maybe I'll have him on one Thursday. It would be interesting.

- Blackout

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You are not your job, your titles, your possessions, your degrees, your lovers, your relationships, your place of residence, your social security number, your ID, your bills, your worries, your bank account, your age or your body. You are the timeless being that created & perceives itself through those things, and you have the power to play or not play that game. When someone asks me "what do you do?" looking for some title to pin me down, I laugh and say "EVERYTHING!" - Blackout

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Vinas
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I'm lucky enough to personally have a priest like that.

If you're comfortable with your beliefs, and I'm comfortable with mine, why can't we just be friends, with all the background music that follows?

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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Rachael
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What about angels? Was anyone else fascinated with the whole idea of a gaurdian angel? I was for a long time. It's such a comforting thought. I'd love to feel like there was someone sent to protect me, who knew every bump, and bruise, and traumatic experience. They'd also know about the happy ones too. I'd love to think that when I cry, there is someone there who wishes they could comfort me, and when I smile, they smile too, because they know me that well. If there are gaurdian angels, that must be the toughest job in the world. You'd spend your time watching and helping people who, half the time, wouldn't even acknowlegde the existence of angels. You couldn't talk to these people, or thouch them, or let them know that you're there. Sometimes I think that God might be a little like Santa Claus. Just because, as adults, we know that there isn't a real man that lives in the North Pole and delivers presents for children, that doesn't take the magic out of Christmas. It's the idea of things like Santa Claus and Gaurdian angels that's so special. It's the thought that's comforting.
Posts: 61 | From: ucf | Registered: Oct 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
pharris
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Shotsie -

Although Judaism is indeed a religion, Jews ARE a race to themselves (Being a Jew, Im slightly informed on this)

Jews have been around for nearly 6000 years. We rarely married out of the faith and were nomadic, being kicked out of one place and then the next. We are indeed a race.

In fact, much like Blacks are prone to Sickle Cell, Jews are prone to Krones disease (Did I spell that correctly? Im not sure, I dont have Krones!)

so there is validity to both. There is indeed jewish 'blood' running through some peoples' veinsm and some people are just jewish by religious choice!

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See, the thing is....

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Lindsi
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AMEN RACHAEL!
[Razz]

(figured 'amen' was appropriate) [Big Grin]

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I tried to give you Summer, but I'm Winter. I wish I could make you Spring, but I Fall so hard.

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Rachael
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Thanks!
Posts: 61 | From: ucf | Registered: Oct 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
ShaynaMaidelah
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Pharris: Many eastern european Jews are also carriers of a disease called Tay-Sachs which from what I've read about it destroys your metabolism. It normally strikes at a very early age.

As well as being a race, we are also a nationality (as in Israel).

As much as angels are mentioned in the Torah/Bible, I don't believe in having a guardian angel. Through years of religious school, we were taught that angels weren't cherubic little children with golden rings around their head who spent their time protecting people, but they were these firy, winged, creatures that were G-d's closest messengers.

I don't believe that there is an "angel" exactly watching out for me. I do believe though I have a conscience and that, at the last minute, will protect me from doing something I'll really regret. And whether that conscience is me, or is some G-d like force tapping into my brain waves, I'll probably never know.

I can't live with the idea that as a human, when I cry and feel like shit, that there is a creature looking down at me wishing it could tell me that everything will be alright. I have to put trust in others. There are only 6 billion+ humans on planet Earth. There has to be someone you can talk to. As much as G-d, or fate, is involved in determining your life, you are the last and most important factor in what happens in your lifetime. You need to rely on yourself and not rely on an unseen force that you just assume is there.

Did that sound arrogant? If so, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Shayna

--------------------
Semper Ubi, Sub Ubi:
Always wear underwear.

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pharris
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So I know everyone is wondering where Pharris' religious beliefs lie...

So here goes nothing.

I am jewish - VERY reform (I am fairly certain that McRib isnt kosher)

HoweverI really have quite a hard time believing that people once lived to be several hundred years old, that every animal on earth was once a passenger on the first 'Love Boat' (But that would be a funny parody, wouldnt it?) or that Chuck Heston split the red sea...

My opinion is this -

Religion is an affiliation to a group thayt has a book of sorts (The Torah, the Bible, The Qurran) in which fables are told that each end with a message or moral about how to live one's life in a pleasant or better way.

Religions usually have a location to visit, to make pilgrimage to, etc.

Also there are usually songs or psalms that accompany the lot, to sing while youre in church and to sing at home, to remind you of your religion.

So I suppose my religion is Disney.

There is a grouping of fables to help you grow as a person (The animated films)

There is a Mecca to visit (Several, actually. I make my pilgrimage usually two or three times a year. In fact, I just visitied Disney-MGM Studios last month!)

And of course, the psalms. "The Bear Necessities" is one of my personal favorites.

Scoff if you will, but MY religion makes just as much sense as any other. And I dont have to wonder wether or not Walt was a real person, If he really existed, etc. I know for a fact he did!

As Jeff put it - Who wants to be a Minnie-Ster?

--------------------
See, the thing is....

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Rachael
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Shayna, I know what you mean. It would be nice to really believe in angels, or some force watching out for us. However, that doesn't seem very likely. It is your decision to do what you can with the time your given. The good part is that when you do something good, you know that you had a big part in making that happen, and you can be proud of it.
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Vinas
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Pharris, I once read a very interesting treatise on the "science behind the Bible", and it could be explained that people once lived to hundreds of years of age simply because primative time keeping was sketchy at best in the cultures that monothesic religion evolved out of, and the definition of a "year" was not what it currently is - if suddenly tomorrow we said a "year" meant "26 days", you'd be hundreds of years old, too.

Beyond that, though, I agree with you completely. Religion, to me, is a force that YOU personally look up to in YOUR life as an important set of guiding ideals - if that's an animation studio, well, I may suggest you look inside a little harder, but I'd never suggest that your beliefs are invalid. Though you cannot disprove my beliefs and prove my "God" isn't real, I also cannot prove He is, and therefore have no grounds upon which to dismiss anyone else's religious beliefs.

I wish more people (On both sides of the perpetual dogfight) would realize that simple fact.

--------------------
"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the desk of Karl:

Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.

1. Use alcohol in moderation.
2. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
3. Eat right.
4. Hank dictated this list Himself.
5. The moon is made of green cheese.
6. Everything Hank says is right.
7. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
8. Don't use alcohol.
9. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
10. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears. "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

--------------------
Spiral out, keep going.

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Shostie
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Okay. Now I may engage in the debate. Pharris, to counter your arguement that being "Jewish" implies race. Can I be a Jew? Why, of course I can. The last time I checked, you don't have to be of any particular race to belong to a religion. All I'd have to do is renounce Jesus Christ and say that he wasn't the son of God, and add a couple thousand years to my calender. Then it's Yom Kippur city, baby! I'll bet there are a few black Jewish people out there, too.

Conversely, you can be a Jew, and suddenly admit that, HEY, Jesus WAS the son of God, and hence become Christian.

When you say that some Jewish people are prone to a certain disease, what you really mean to say is that some people of a certain RACIAL descent are prone to contract said disease. If I were to convert to Judaism (thereby becoming "Jewish" that does not necessarily mean that I will be in the line of fire of the disease.

Point being, race and religion are not one in the same, and the quality of being "Jewish" (a follower of Judaism) is a religious phenomenon, not a racial one.

--------------------
Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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Vinas
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A disease transmitted by religion...now THERE'S a good horror movie.

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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pharris
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Shotsie, you can indeed convert to judaism, and then you will be a jew.

But most jews come from a distinct bloodline, unless they have converted into the faith. As Shayna pinted out, Tay Sachs is a disease that generally befalls easter european jews, and Krones has a similar blood relation.

This is what many people have such difficulty understanding - Judaism IS indeed a race. Again, there are jews who are not 'Blood' jews, but most are.

Hence the certain physical traits that most jews have... such as lotsa hair.. we are a swarthy people.

--------------------
See, the thing is....

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Jesus Cheddar
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My computer has been in the shop for a whole week, so it's only now that I get to join in on this thread.

The hardest thing for me is to cultivate genuine compassion for what we sometimes call "religious whackos". We're all at different places in our spiritual unfoldment, and just as Tiger Woods doesn't decry the existence of amateur golfers for missing the ball, I feel like I "should" have the inner strength to grant religious fanatics a level of compassion they're incapable of granting me. But I really struggle with living up to that standard. Then again, amateur golfers rarely condemn Tiger to hell for his facility on the putting green.
I think the greatest barrier we face is the notion that others aren't worthy of our acceptance (or worthy of being treated with human decency) because their most basic convictions about existence are at odds with ours. Just my 2 cents.

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Whichever one I feed.

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my mummy
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I think something needs to be said in lieu of religion. I am by no means a 'religious' person in any uniformed way, whether it be Christianity or Buddhism-- religion itself is dry and cold, devoid of human thought and emotion. Essentially, it is just a set of theoretical rules and beliefs that people bash from extremist points of view-- indeed, the two predominant views of religion are those of religion lovers and religion haters; nothing in the middle. Religion itself can become a human thing if aspects of the human condition are merged with it. It is obvious that no general rule can contain the ferocity of human nature. When a religion is followed in lieu of this, sometimes beautiful things are possible. Religion ceases to be a dogmatic security blanket or hammer of justice used to prove points and deal judgement-- it becomes something deeply personal and relational. Please realize that I am not talking about a post-modern extreme that would argue the relativity of spirituality and truth. I firmly believe there is but *one* truth that is expressed according to our being, our quirks and our gifts, but it is not subjective. Religion, when it is viewed in a correct perspective, can become a path towards this truth, not the truth itself.
I sometimes grow tired of our generation's attack on religion-- yes, one believes what one believes, and yes, religion has probably done more bad than good-- so discard it, investigate it or embrace it... Don't just state again and again how much religion sucks. I think the same can be said for Christianity-- yes, many things have been messed up by Christian circles, but there comes a point when announcing this fact again and again becomes redundant-- I say it again, discard it, investigate it or embrace it... The view of christians and 'bible-thumpers' has become almost as dogmatic as christianity itself-- don't assign yourself.

- peace and all that. talk, speak, argue, laugh. 'tis fun.

--------------------
eggs

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pharris
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Everyone needs to join my religion.

You can have premarital sex
(Hetero-only, sorry KDK...)
You can eat pork
(In fact, you must, when McRib is available!)
You dont have to boycott Disney
(Better yet - you MUST go there once a year to make pilgrimage!)

Sound good?
Sign up by posting here.

--------------------
See, the thing is....

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Buffica
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Hey, let's all plan a mecca to Disneyland/Disneyworld/DisneyParis (we must take a poll on location). But, YES INDEED Jewish is considered a race/cultural bloodline, this is a fact not to be disputed. Otherwise, Bible thumpers are unfortunate, not for what they believe (this should be a free world) but for how they are throwing in our face their beliefs and are sop disparaging and unacceptable to other beliefs. I could easily join Pharris religion, maybe we can call it Pharrism? Although I have never enjoyed the McRib sandwhich (even though I never have tried to eat it) and will not eat it; and instead I will eat green eggs and ham.
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Galador
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Interesting point brought up about the nature of religion, how there seem to be two main camps: the religious, and the anti-religious, with not much in between.

For over a decade I have practiced an obscure religion that preaches an apathetic response to the question and nature of God (or lack thereof). Partly founded in 19th century Deism, my "apatheistic" form is pretty clear about where it stands on God or religion-- it doesn't matter. Whether there's a god or group of gods or none at all doesn't matter. I don't care. If I want a life of goodness, of happiness, of love and kindness, etc., it's not going to be out of fear of some vengeful god or an attempt to secure my place in some afterlife... it's going to be because I think it's the right thing to do. I'm not going to wait for some deity to miracle up some magical potion to set my life straight, I'm going to do the hard work myself and reap my own rewards. If there even is a god, he's long moved on to other things, I'm sure...but it really doesn't matter. Monotheists believe in one god, as Polytheists believe in many gods and Atheists believe in no god--as an apatheist I believe it doesn't matter one way or the other. I just don't care about the entire argument.

And for those of you who always wondered, yes, the long nails are part of my belief system.

James

--------------------
Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Rachael
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I've heard of Deism before, but I'm not sure where. I'd love more info if you have it. Very cool though, kind of sums up what I've been thinking lately.
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Galador
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Deists had the prevailing belief that God created the universe and everything within it, then abandoned it. Thus it becomes our responsibility to "tend our garden," as Voltaire put it in Candide , and carry on with our lives under our own influences and motivations. The apatheistic deist goes one step further by being totally ambivalent even to the idea of God's existence--if there is a God and He did abandon creation, why waste time even considering Him? Create your own paradise, take some responsibility for your life. Have a slurpee.

James

--------------------
Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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Rachael
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Oddly enough, South Park offered up an interesting commentary on this subject. Here's a little of what was said:
"We've been thinking, and, maybe heaven isn't an actual place that you can get to. We think it's more of an idea."
"Yeah, maybe heaven is this moment, right now. we should all stop trying to reach heaven by doing good works, and start trying to create heaven where we are now."
Ok, so the paraphrasing may be off (it's late...or early...whatever)but I think the cartoon actually made a good point. This was from the recent episode where the boys try to build a ladder to heaven to ask Kenny where he put the raffle ticket so that they could win a free candy shopping spree.

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Vinas
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If I join your religion, is the slurpee GIVEN to me, or do I have to actually pay for it myself?

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"Vinny uncaringly hurts peoples feelings. He's like a mean robot."

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Shostie
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Pharris, except for the chronic-McRib-eating and yearly pilgrammages to DisneyWorld, I think I already belong to your religion.

--------------------
Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

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elf
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I know I have something deep to say about that James, I haven't figured out what it is just yet. I will keep you posted.

But...I am in agreement. [Smile]

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Ahem, I am not Mexican. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

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elf
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...However not to sound too much like Freshman Intro to Philosophy, your beliefs, James, reminds me of the Tao - which I have developed a late-setting interest in recently.

How would you compare and contrast your Deism with the Taoist underlining principle that we are nothing, and we are everything.

Further - would you say that Deism is more moralistic, than religious or spiritual?

Finally - can you be spiritual without a concrete belief in "what God is". Can you pray if you don't believe that there is a white-bearded man looking down kindly at you and listening?

?elf?

--------------------
Ahem, I am not Mexican. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

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Galador
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In general, Taoists believe in allowing nature to take its course unimpeded (wu wei, yes?) and that salvation or enlightenment is found within through meditation, rather than prayers to some deity or figurehead. There is definitely an interest in spirituality as a healthy, natural part of existence.

The deist acknowledges that God created the universe but would prefer to base his belief on reason, thus downplaying the motivation for enlightenment. Morality is much more of a guiding factor.

The apatheistic deist, or galadorian, has no interest in confirming or denying the existence of a god, considering it a moot point. If He exists, then He's gone. If He doesn't exist, then why bicker about it? The important distinction is that the regular deist relies on reason in a world that is set by non-deists, working within the system to ensure their moralistic goals; whereas the galadorian is set free by not having to acknowledge the system and can approach morality from outside the box.

quote:
Finally - can you be spiritual without a concrete belief in "what God is". Can you pray if you don't believe that there is a white-bearded man looking down kindly at you and listen
The taoist doesn't recognize the concept of prayer, as there has never been someone to pray TO, and for the deist prayer is waste of time because the person people pray to has been long gone--the speaker phone is on, but He's left the room. Both camps believe in having a soul of sorts, but approach with very different methods. Apatheists would just say, "It doesn't matter if we have a soul or not. It doesn't matter whether or not we find enlightenment. Be good for the sake of being good. Do the right thing."

So, Be good, okay?

James

--------------------
Zenyatta Mondatta dot com

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my mummy
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Hey Galador,

I must say that this apatheism is most definately intriguing... You are obviously a man with valid philosophical concerns, so I hope you won't mind me analyzing what you've said so far. I know that there is more to this than what you've wrote, and I'm bearing that in mind, so please tell me more when you can. Hopefully my questions will spurn some more creative thought.

Well, Here goes.

I don't know if I'd ever be able to 'not care' whether or not God exists... The question of God's existance is too huge for me to be able to not care for it-- in essence, the question itself is too important, too invigourating (and sometimes too much) for me to give up on. Obviously there is, as far as I know, no way to deductively disprove or prove the existence of God, but I think I would be committing an existential crime of sorts by *not* pursuing the question of God (there is more to this, as well-- I'm giving you a bit of a synopsis rather than the whole deal).

I also have a few questions about your assertion "if there is a God, then he's gone". Obviously you must hold this belief very strongly in order to discard your quest for the truth regarding your existence, and I would be interested to hear an argument behind this assertion. Why, if there is a God, is he gone? How have you come by this answer? Obviously there is the issue of pain and suffering in the world, and also what some would call a lack of evidence. Regarding these two, I have a few ideas that I've picked up myself, which I will save for another time, perhaps. At any rate, I'm interested in the argument you would place for what you have stated about your beliefs.

- yo yo.

[ 11-14-2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: my mummy ]

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eggs

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my mummy
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One more thing-- I am interested your 'doing good for the sake of good'. If I am correct, you believe that something can be intrinsically 'right' or 'wrong' (I don't know if you've ever studied Immanuel Kant's deontology). Or perhaps you believe the good of an action is discerned by it's consequences and after-effects, rather than any intrinsic worth?

Well, I think that's it... But who knows.

--------------------
eggs

Posts: 22 | From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
Shostie
Blackout's Box Illuminati and Dreaderator: Vinlar the Dreadful Only available to those with over 3000 posts
Member # 112

Member Rated:
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Deism can be summed up pretty quickly if one uses the "clockwork" analogy:

Got created the Universe, and in doing so, effectively wound up a clock (the Universe) and let it run.

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Maestra is indeed a sexy geek.

"Primitive humans make tools; computer-designed, high-tech hand tools." -program description from The History Channel's Modern Marvels

"I wish God were alive to see this." -Homer Simpson

"And my stage directions make no sense. How is it possible for me to wear clown make up AND be sober all at once?" -Davan MacIntire

Posts: 3653 | From: Houston, TX | Registered: Jul 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
elf
Drunken Latin Mistress, Lover of the Cinnabun, Sex Doctor, and Lawyer
Member # 276

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someone...anyone...send a prayer up to the Gods of Very Bad Hair days for me...

thank you.

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Ahem, I am not Mexican. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

Posts: 1257 | Registered: Sep 2002  | Report this post to a Moderator
pakbehl
Semi-Genius Member
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I like the popcorn idea. You might also get some "halelluja" music that's always playing in the background on the jeebus channel when "Reverend Jackson Brown" or whomever is rappin on about da LOAD! Get some of that music on a cd and bring a big ghetto box to that place and play it really loud as they're yelling at people. Act like you're one of them and go way too far and make them all look dumb simply cuz they're next to you.

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If a cat always lands on its feet, and buttered toast always lands butter side down, then a cat with buttered toast strapped to its back will hover above the ground in a state of quantum indecision.

Posts: 244 | From: Ventura, CA | Registered: Jun 2001  | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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